Discussion:
Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0
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Vadim Zavalishin
2018-10-31 10:19:36 UTC
Permalink
Announcing a small update to the book

https://www.native-instruments.com/fileadmin/ni_media/downloads/pdf/VAFilterDesign_2.1.0.pdf

New additions:
- Generalized ladder filters
- Elliptic filters of order 2^N
- Steepness estimation of elliptic shelving filters

Regards,
Vadim
--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
Stefan Stenzel
2018-10-31 14:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Thank you very much, Sir!

But why the warning about multimode lattice filters?
In my case, this comes way too late!

Stefan
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Announcing a small update to the book
https://www.native-instruments.com/fileadmin/ni_media/downloads/pdf/VAFilterDesign_2.1.0.pdf
- Generalized ladder filters
- Elliptic filters of order 2^N
- Steepness estimation of elliptic shelving filters
Regards,
Vadim
--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0
www.native-instruments.com
_______________________________________________
dupswapdrop: music-dsp mailing list
https://lists.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp
Vadim Zavalishin
2018-10-31 15:29:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Stenzel
Thank you very much, Sir!
You're highly welcome, Sir!
Post by Stefan Stenzel
But why the warning about multimode lattice filters?
In my case, this comes way too late!
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
- Generalized ladder filters
You mean, why isn't this discussed in Chapter 5? Well, good question.
But in the same sense, one could ask why generalized SVF doesn't come in
Chapter 4. Chapter 8 is specifically concerned with building filters
with arbitrary transfer functions of arbitrary orders, whereas Chapters
4 and 5 rather deal with structures commonly used in synths (more or
less), and from this POV it belongs there. Also, had I discussed it in
Chapter 5, it would have been difficult to derive it from the
generalized SVF idea, which in my opinion is highly educative.

Actually, are you by any chance aware of this structure being discussed
elsewhere? Haven't encountered anything like that so far (not that it's
difficult to derive ;) ), just wanted to build a nonlinear 2nd kind
Butterworth filter of 4th order, so needed something like that ;)

Best regards,
Vadim
--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
Stefan Stenzel
2018-10-31 17:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Vadim,

I was more refering to the analog multimode filter based on the moog cascade I did some years ago, and found it amusing to find a warning against it.

Anyway, excellent writeup, I wish I cuold have it printed as a proper book for more relaxed reading.

Stefan
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Post by Stefan Stenzel
Thank you very much, Sir!
You're highly welcome, Sir!
Post by Stefan Stenzel
But why the warning about multimode lattice filters?
In my case, this comes way too late!
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
- Generalized ladder filters
You mean, why isn't this discussed in Chapter 5? Well, good question. But in the same sense, one could ask why generalized SVF doesn't come in Chapter 4. Chapter 8 is specifically concerned with building filters with arbitrary transfer functions of arbitrary orders, whereas Chapters 4 and 5 rather deal with structures commonly used in synths (more or less), and from this POV it belongs there. Also, had I discussed it in Chapter 5, it would have been difficult to derive it from the generalized SVF idea, which in my opinion is highly educative.
Actually, are you by any chance aware of this structure being discussed elsewhere? Haven't encountered anything like that so far (not that it's difficult to derive ;) ), just wanted to build a nonlinear 2nd kind Butterworth filter of 4th order, so needed something like that ;)
Best regards,
Vadim
--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0
www.native-instruments.com
_______________________________________________
dupswapdrop: music-dsp mailing list
https://lists.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp
Vadim Zavalishin
2018-11-01 08:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Stenzel
Vadim,
I was more refering to the analog multimode filter based on the moog cascade I did some years ago, and found it amusing to find a warning against it.
Ah, you mean the one at the beginning of Section 5.5? Well, that's an
artifact of the older revision 1, where the ladder filter was introduced
before the SVF (I still believe it's better didactically, unfortunately
new material dependencies made me switch the order). The modal mixtures
of the transistor ladder are asymmetric (HP is not symmetric to LP and
has the resonance peak kind of "in the middle of its slope" and BP is
not symmetric on its own). I felt that it might be confusing for a
beginner if their first encounter with resonating HP and BP is with this
kind of special-looking filters, hence the warning. With revision 2 this
warning becomes less important, since the 2-pole LP and BP were
discussed already before, but I still believe it's informative. After
all, it doesn't say that these filters are bad, it says that they are
special ;)
Post by Stefan Stenzel
Anyway, excellent writeup,
Thank you! I'm glad my book is appreciated not only by newbies, but also
by the industry experts.
Post by Stefan Stenzel
I wish I cuold have it printed as a proper book for more relaxed reading.
Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)

Vadim
--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
p***@synth.net
2018-11-01 14:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)
I'd willingly pay for a copy.

Consider how thick books like "The art of electronics" by Horowitz and
Hill is? (just over 1100 pages).
It's well worth its size and weight (quite literally) :)

Paula
Vadim Zavalishin
2018-11-01 15:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@synth.net
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)
I'd willingly pay for a copy.
Quite pleased to hear that, thank you ;) Still, you could ask a copy
shop to print and bind a copy for yourself (the book license allows it).

I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I don't
really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be prohibitively
difficult to release small updates such as this one.

Best regards,
Vadim
--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
Fabian-Robert Stöter
2018-11-01 15:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Vadim,

This is a really valuable resource for many of us.
I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I don't really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be prohibitively difficult to release small updates such as this one.
I appreciate that but it would still be nice if your book could be cited appropriately. Have you thought about putting it on arxiv or zenodo.org?
This would give you the possibility to version the book and make folks from academia happy with a proper DOI reference.

Best
Fabian

—————————————————————————————————
Fabian-Robert Stöter

INRIA and LIRMM
Campus Saint-Priest - Bâtiment 5
860 rue de St Priest
34392 Montpellier Cedex 5 France
https://faroit.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Vadim Zavalishin
2018-11-02 08:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fabian-Robert Stöter
I appreciate that but it would still be nice if your book could be cited
appropriately. Have you thought about putting it on arxiv or zenodo.org
<http://zenodo.org>?
This would give you the possibility to version the book and make folks
from academia happy with a proper DOI reference.
Nobody complained so far, but I will consider your suggestion, thank you!

Best regards,
Vadim
--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
p***@synth.net
2018-11-01 16:09:46 UTC
Permalink
You could also do a kickstarter, like the push turn move and patch&tweak
books?
Or just self publish, where they print say 5 books and sell them, when
they drop below 2 they print a few more.

Just some random thoughts, but I will probably find somewhere I can get
it printed/bound :)

Paula
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Post by p***@synth.net
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)
I'd willingly pay for a copy.
Quite pleased to hear that, thank you ;) Still, you could ask a copy
shop to print and bind a copy for yourself (the book license allows it).
I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I
don't really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be
prohibitively difficult to release small updates such as this one.
Best regards,
Vadim
p***@synth.net
2018-11-01 17:18:04 UTC
Permalink
FWIW, I found somewhere you can get printed copies of PDFs bound in a
hardback for £40 + postage :)

Paula
Post by p***@synth.net
You could also do a kickstarter, like the push turn move and
patch&tweak books?
Or just self publish, where they print say 5 books and sell them, when
they drop below 2 they print a few more.
Just some random thoughts, but I will probably find somewhere I can
get it printed/bound :)
Paula
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Post by p***@synth.net
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)
I'd willingly pay for a copy.
Quite pleased to hear that, thank you ;) Still, you could ask a copy
shop to print and bind a copy for yourself (the book license allows it).
I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I
don't really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be
prohibitively difficult to release small updates such as this one.
Best regards,
Vadim
_______________________________________________
dupswapdrop: music-dsp mailing list
https://lists.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp
p***@synth.net
2018-11-01 17:29:17 UTC
Permalink
5 copies works out at £25 each :)
Post by p***@synth.net
FWIW, I found somewhere you can get printed copies of PDFs bound in a
hardback for £40 + postage :)
Paula
Post by p***@synth.net
You could also do a kickstarter, like the push turn move and
patch&tweak books?
Or just self publish, where they print say 5 books and sell them, when
they drop below 2 they print a few more.
Just some random thoughts, but I will probably find somewhere I can
get it printed/bound :)
Paula
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Post by p***@synth.net
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)
I'd willingly pay for a copy.
Quite pleased to hear that, thank you ;) Still, you could ask a copy
shop to print and bind a copy for yourself (the book license allows it).
I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I
don't really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be
prohibitively difficult to release small updates such as this one.
Best regards,
Vadim
_______________________________________________
dupswapdrop: music-dsp mailing list
https://lists.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp
_______________________________________________
dupswapdrop: music-dsp mailing list
https://lists.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp
Andrew Simper
2018-11-02 02:06:34 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 16:24, Vadim Zavalishin <
Post by Stefan Stenzel
Post by Stefan Stenzel
Vadim,
I was more refering to the analog multimode filter based on the moog
cascade I did some years ago, and found it amusing to find a warning
against it.
Ah, you mean the one at the beginning of Section 5.5? Well, that's an
artifact of the older revision 1, where the ladder filter was introduced
before the SVF (I still believe it's better didactically, unfortunately
new material dependencies made me switch the order). The modal mixtures
of the transistor ladder are asymmetric (HP is not symmetric to LP and
has the resonance peak kind of "in the middle of its slope" and BP is
not symmetric on its own). I felt that it might be confusing for a
beginner if their first encounter with resonating HP and BP is with this
kind of special-looking filters, hence the warning. With revision 2 this
warning becomes less important, since the 2-pole LP and BP were
discussed already before, but I still believe it's informative. After
all, it doesn't say that these filters are bad, it says that they are
special ;)
If you prize symmetry then you can use a cascade with 2 x one pole HP and 2
x one pole LP to make a 4 pole BP (band pass) then you can use the same old
FIR based output tap mixing to generate all the different responses. It may
not be so easy to do in a real circuit, but in software we're not bound by
what is easy to build :)

https://cytomic.com/files/dsp/cascade-all-to-all-responses.pdf
Post by Stefan Stenzel
Post by Stefan Stenzel
Anyway, excellent writeup,
Thank you! I'm glad my book is appreciated not only by newbies, but also
by the industry experts.
Post by Stefan Stenzel
I wish I cuold have it printed as a proper book for more relaxed reading.
Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)
Vadim
Stefan: This sounds like the prefect excuse to get a HiDPI tablet to store
and read all your PDFs, much lighter actual books and easier to search :)

I've gone paper free now and write notes in PDF format and annotate
directly on published papers in PDF format, which is great since it's
easier to find things and it's all backed up. I lost a paper notebook and
was always losing conference papers I printed out and annotated, which is
quite frustrating. Digital has it's own challenges, but overall I'm happy
with the move and love that everything is backed.

Cheers,

Andy
Vadim Zavalishin
2018-11-02 08:54:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Simper
If you prize symmetry then you can use a cascade with 2 x one pole HP
and 2 x one pole LP to make a 4 pole BP (band pass) then you can use the
same old FIR based output tap mixing to generate all the different
responses. It may not be so easy to do in a real circuit, but in
software we're not bound by what is easy to build :)
https://cytomic.com/files/dsp/cascade-all-to-all-responses.pdf
Symmetry is one of the things. The other is the shape of the amplitude
response. I'm personally not convinced by the -4dB dip prior to the
resonance, although YMMV. At any rate it doesn't qualify as a "bread and
butter" LP IMHO ;) With BP8 it's getting way worse.

Incidentally, another way to come at more or less the same structure is
raising the orders of LP and HP filters (by stacking identical 1-poles
in series) in the transposed Sallen-Key (Fig.5.23 of the book). Since
TSK is essentially a bandpass ladder with a special output mode, it's
actually the same. Further ways (originating at lowpass ladder) to look
at this can be found here:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6844369#p6844369
and here
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6844470#p6844470


Regards,
Vadim
--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
Bjorn Roche
2018-11-01 16:12:20 UTC
Permalink
This looks like an amazing resource -- I hadn't seen it before. Thanks for
sharing your knowledge!

bjorn

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 6:20 AM Vadim Zavalishin <
Post by Vadim Zavalishin
Announcing a small update to the book
https://www.native-instruments.com/fileadmin/ni_media/downloads/pdf/VAFilterDesign_2.1.0.pdf
- Generalized ladder filters
- Elliptic filters of order 2^N
- Steepness estimation of elliptic shelving filters
Regards,
Vadim
--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0
www.native-instruments.com
_______________________________________________
dupswapdrop: music-dsp mailing list
https://lists.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp
--
---------------------
Bjorn Roche
bjornroche.com
@bjornroche
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